Dukakis Says Americans Want Real Issues From Politics

Aired May 1, 1996

GENE RANDALL, Anchor: The Dole camp was eager this week to recall Michael Dukakis' big lead over George Bush around this time in 1988. Given Dole's current poll numbers, he is clearly hoping President Clinton suffers the same kind of negative turnaround as Dukakis did, and Michael Dukakis joins us from Boston to share his thoughts on Campaign '96.

Governor Dukakis, nice to see you again.

MICHAEL DUKAKIS, Former Presidential Candidate: Gene, it's good to be with you.

RANDALL: Let's talk first about the poll numbers. If they are to be believed, President Clinton is in very good shape, indeed, to meet the challenge from Senator Bob Dole, but how much do those numbers mean at this point.

DUKAKIS: Well, they don't mean a lot. I mean, for one thing, the Republicans are wrong. I was never 20 points ahead of George Bush and I certainly wasn't 20 points ahead of him in April or May of 1988. Secondly, as a guy who once was 40 points ahead with about 30 days to go before a Democratic primary that I lost, I don't much credence in those poll numbers. I really think what's important here is to kind of get a sense of what's really going on, what challenges do we face in this country, and I think the fact of the matter is that it's what's happening to the middle class that is of greatest concern to most Americans and there, at least so far, Bill Clinton seems to understand this a lot better than Bob Dole does.

RANDALL: OK. Before we get to the issues of 1996, let's dispense with this issue of poll numbers. Senator Dole's Spokesman Nelson Warfield said this week, `It's nice to start strong, but a lot better to finish strong.' And to buttress this point, he said, `Check it out with President Dukakis.' Now, you came out of the Democratic convention in 1988 in very good shape, far ahead of George Bush. Does Warfield have a point?

DUKAKIS: No, because those numbers were never real, Gene. Look, I got a bounce from my convention, Bush got a bounce from his convention, but that was a very much an even- Steven race as we went into the final, and I just didn't do a very good job of doing what you have to do to win an election. So that was never a real lead. On the other hand, if, as I suspect these days, people are feeling a lot better about the president and not so good about Dole, that's bad news for Bob Dole.

RANDALL: What do you see as the key issue in the fall campaign? You have mentioned that you thought Patrick Buchanan hit the proper button when he talked about worker anxiety in this country.

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DUKAKIS: It is THE issue. What's happening to working, middle-class people in this country, this growing sense of economic insecurity. It isn't just what people are bringing home in their paychecks, it's what's happening on the health insurance front, it's the fact that middle-class families are going broke trying to send their kids to college, it's what's happening to their hopes for a reasonably secure retirement - I mean, will Social Security and Medicare be there when we retire? Those are the kinds of things that I think concern the vast majority of Americans and that's going to be the issue in this campaign.

RANDALL: Well, let me read you something from a political scientist at Emory University in Atlanta, Elizabeth Fox-Genovese [sp]. She says it's not enough in a presidential campaign to talk in cold, economic terms, that the real issue for large numbers of Americans is, is anyone talking about my life? Would you agree?

DUKAKIS: Yes I would, yes I would. I think I did a better job of doing that in the primary of 1988 than I did in the final vote, but its absolutely true, and these are real issues. I mean, you can throw statistics at people, you can talk big numbers, but the real question is, `How are Americans feeling about themselves, about their families, about their future,' and for an awful lot of working middle-class Americans, there's a sense that they are sharing in this prosperity, this isn't an economic system that is fair to them, they are struggling hard. We've got more, Gene, we've got more people, wage-earners per household, in the United States than any other advanced industrialized nation in the world and household income is still declining. So it gives you some sense of what's going on out there, and I think there's an enormous amount of anxiety among Americans and especially among middle-class Americans.

RANDALL: Bill Clinton in 1992 ran almost exclusively on the economy. Does he run on the same thing this year, and how does he change the message?

DUKAKIS: Well, I think what he says and what he is saying is, `Look, you elected me to turn this economic thing around. I've done so, but I'm not happy and you shouldn't be happy at what's happening to middle-class people, and my next four years is going to be devoted to doing precisely that - to making sure that all working Americans and middle-class Americans are sharing this prosperity. And I think it's a very strong message and I think it's going to be a winning message.

RANDALL: Governor, talk to me now as an observer of the political scene, not as a partisan Democrat. You ran for president as a sitting governor. Bob Dole is running for president as Senate majority leader. Does he learn some lessons from your experience?

DUKAKIS: It's much easier to run as a sitting governor I think, Gene, than as Senate majority leader. I mean, being Senate majority leader has to be one of the toughest jobs in American politics. It's an almost impossible job, it's difficult, the Senate doesn't move fast, 40 members of the Senate, as you and I know, can stop action with a filibuster - something Bob Dole himself did many times and the opposition is free to do it. It's a very tough position to be in when your running for the presidency. Running as a sitting governor is a lot easier than that because you're not faced with the kinds of problems as you're faced with as the presiding leader, if you will, in the Senate of the United States. It's a very tough job and a very tough platform from which to run for the presidency.

RANDALL: Governor, 10 seconds. When President Clinton's advisers look at his poll numbers today, what should their attitude be?

DUKAKIS: Don't take anything for granted. Don't get over-confident. This is a long, hard, tough fight and we've got to fight that fight every day and every week from now until November.

RANDALL: Governor Dukakis, thanks very much. Nice to see you again.

DUKAKIS: Good to talk with you, Gene.

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